Episode 73 Why is IA So Frustrating?

“From being believed in the consulting room to being supported at work, this episode explores why listening, understanding and partnership are essential for people living with inflammatory arthritis.”

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Summary

Debbie reflects on finally receiving a long-awaited steroid injection after seven months of waiting and contrasts the positive, collaborative experience with a much less supportive GP appointment. The discussion shines a light on the importance of being listened to, believed, and treated as an equal partner in your healthcare.

The conversation also explores the wider challenges facing the NHS, from workforce pressures and staff shortages to the impact these issues have on both patients and healthcare professionals. While frustrations are real, Debbie and Katy discuss why kindness, understanding and better communication are needed on all sides.

They also revisit last week’s powerful conversation with Arun, discussing employment, flexible working, disability support, and the importance of including lived experience in policy decisions. From workplace adjustments to the realities of navigating benefits and returning to work, they explore the barriers many people with long-term conditions continue to face.

Plus, they discuss:

• Why being dismissed or told symptoms are “all in your head” can have lasting impacts.
• The challenges of self-advocacy, especially when you’re unwell.
• How women’s pain and symptoms can still be overlooked.
• Why support networks play such a vital role in living well with inflammatory arthritis.
• New NHS App features, appointment notifications and prescription updates.
• The importance of checking medication delivery dates and staying on top of prescriptions.
• A recent visit to Parliament with the Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Alliance (ARMA) to raise awareness of musculoskeletal conditions and the need for greater political focus.

Key words: Inflammatory arthritis, flare-ups, chronic pain, patient experience, being believed, healthcare communication, patient advocacy, self-advocacy, rapport, trust, mutual respect, NHS pressures, workforce shortages, steroid injections, costochondritis, women’s health, invisible illness, workplace support, flexible working, support networks, lived experience, NHS App, prescriptions, medication management, ARMA, Parliament, musculoskeletal conditions, resilience, chronic illness.

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Disclaimer: Debbie and Katy are not medical professionals. They share personal experiences of living with IA to build connection and community. The podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice. We talk about our personal health journeys, and the podcast is not intended to provide professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. We are not medical professionals and in no way claim to be medically trained. The podcast does not take responsibility for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of the podcast. The podcast does not assume responsibility for the accuracy of third-party content. For more information, head to https://inflammatoryarthritis.org/

Debbie: Hello and welcome to Inflammatory! with Debbie.

Katy: And Katy

Debbie: Lovely to see you, Katy but before we get into the episode today, just a quick update. We’ve got a survey out and we would love to hear your thoughts about the podcast, what you like to hear, what you would want to hear from us next year. But also this will really help us for funding to work out the impact that we’re having on people. So, it’ll only take a few minutes. The links will be on our show notes and also on our website. Our website is inflammatoryarthritis.org. But Katy how are you?

Katy: I’m not too bad. Not enjoying well, our garden is enjoying this rain, but I can’t say I’m particularly enjoying it because it’s just so awful after all that glorious weather we had. And then so when we’re recording it’s half term and it’s just means everything’s just horrendous to be honest. and on Friday I’ve had like my wrists have been I think we’ve talked about a couple of weeks ago, my wrists have been a bit funny, but then

Debbie: Yeah.

Katy: I haven’t had this in ages. One of my toes, and it’s so it always feels really bizarre when it’s like it’s my second toe, so it’s only really small. But my God, it really hurt the other Friday morning. Just really quite random. And then once I’d sort of warmed up throughout the day, it was fine because I had the day off with my son and we went to one of the London museums. And you know when you’re kind of like God, have I gotta have a day Like and it’s only a toe, but I was like, God, this is gonna be horrible. It’s wet, I’ve got a painful

Debbie: Always the way

Katy: toe. But actually, it was fine. but it brings out that sort of panic, doesn’t it?

Debbie: it does. Yes. Especially on the day that you really don’t want it. It’s always, yes.

Katy: Yes. Yeah, if I was just at home, I wouldn’t be really that bothered. but yeah, but it it was weird. Then when I was distracted and we were on the tube into London and walking to where we were going, it actually was fine. But it was just the sudden shock ’cause I’ve not had that particular toe pain in ages. So I was like, no, winter’s here. And how are you? Cause you finally got your steroid injection.

Debbie: Yes. ah I know. Seven months of waiting. Yes, I had a phone call, because we went to Parliament, which we’ll talk about a bit later on. I had a phone call on the Tube Inn saying, can you come in tomorrow? And I was like, oh no, I can’t actually do this week. And so, they’re like, okay, we’ll do it the following week. So, it was last Friday. It was just so funny. It was probably the best injections I’ve ever had. It was just hilarious. Not that you, weirdly you could say that, cause obviously, it’s going to be a big needle. know that and obviously slight anxiety. And for me, anxiety means I try to make a joke. I try to make a laugh. Just, you know, it eases me and hopefully people around me as well. So I went in and really nice people there. And put my arm down so he could do, because it was in my elbow. And I was, we were looking at the screen and I was like, do you know what? I don’t actually know what you really look at. And he turned around and goes, neither do I. But he was so convincing. I was just like, you serious? Obviously, my face, my eyes tell you everything. He was like, no, I am just joking. I haven’t just been pulled off the street. I was like, thank God. I obviously know that he hadn’t, it just, and then we’ll do then talking about what happened with that BBC mix up interview. do you remember that it years ago? This bloke went to the BBC, had a job interview, but they thought he was like the head of an IT company or something. And he ended up being interviewed live on telly and his face was,

Katy: oh wow

Debbie: I try and get a clip, it is so, so funny. And so they’re asking him all about these IT sort of questions. but he gave a very convincing answer, which was kind of what kind of reminded me of this. Yeah.

Katy: Yes.

Debbie: The consultant radiologist that was doing this injection was telling me everything about the ultrasound and what they see it was really, really interesting. And then I was asking him about, it’s

Katy: So what do they see?

Debbie: kind of like your blood vessels and your bone so they can then see where if there is any,

Katy: Where the inflammation is.

Debbie: and if there’s any damage and then telling me what the initials mean, the different bones in your joints I was like, okay, that makes sense now. But, know, otherwise it’s just.

Katy: At least she didn’t lie on the bed like when I went to get a wrist injection that time.

Debbie: No, I was sat on a chair. My arm was on the bed. Put it that way.

Katy: Yeah, so that well, that was the same for me, but I got on the bed and they were like, what are you doing? And I was like, Well, there’s a bed

Debbie: Yeah, so I kind of think I had that in my head, so I’m not gonna do a Katy and lie on the bed, and so then just going through, you know, his story and just how he got to where he is today. And so he’s gone up through obviously through medical school and I was like, cause to me he looked quite young and I’m realizing I’m quite old. I think doctors are right, I am quite old. Oh, I know.

Katy: Everybody but everybody looks young to me as well now. I cannot like I have no clue. Everybody looks about eighteen. If they’re younger than me, they’re eighteen in my head.

Debbie: I was just like, well, so, you know, have you paid off your student loan? He was like, yeah, I’ve paid it off ages ago. And he’s telling me that he, how he paid it all off. did loads of overtime and stuff,

Katy: Yeah.

Debbie: Which is obviously great. That’s how he paid it off. So, then he’s been, radiologist and then he’s now a consultant radiologist. He goes, apparently I’m expert. And I was like, So was like, is that your Mercedes out the front then? And he was like, no, no, I have a BMW I know you have a BMW, Katy but I was just saying, you

Katy: Yeah, I was about to say don’t don’t slate it.

Debbie: I was just like, you know there’s an indicator, right? So, then I was just like, oh, so you you’ve got all your stars on your McDonald’s badge then, just had a bit of a laugh about it all and it really did put me at ease and for him as well. And then we did get onto, the delays because, you know, he said, I’m so sorry for the delays. I was well, it’s been, you know, seven months. And he was like, to be honest, that’s better than it has been. And I was just like, so what is this? Is there not enough people coming up through medical school? Is it people, not staying in the NHS? And apparently people are leaving to go to Australia. And thankfully he’s scared of spiders, otherwise he would have gone. So, I was like, please, please, please don’t go, could you really nice?

Katy: Please don’t. Yeah.

Debbie: But it just, think it just highlights that all these issues and the frustrations that we have, it is replicated in the staff as well. And I think it is

Katy: Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie: So, it’s so sad because we’re losing really talented people from the NHS. And I obviously, you know, we try to do what we can as a charity to, highlight the great work that they do, but it’s still hard that they just leave. But I get it. You get a better work-life balance and I think that’s what life is all about really as well. it’s just tough.

Katy: Yeah. Yeah, but it then puts patients at risk of, not getting the treatments that they need. So it’s really hard for everybody, isn’t it?

Debbie: It is. I don’t know what the solution is because I think, even the systems that we’ve talked about before, they get frustrated as well with them. And so, yeah, I don’t know.

Katy: Yeah. I guess we’ve all got to be a bit nicer to each other or kinder to each other. The like understand it’s having that understanding, isn’t it? That it’s frustrating for the patient, but equally quite often the medical professionals are just as frustrated and they’re under a lot of pressure. not excusing bad service or, things like that, but I think I’ve tried to calm down ’cause I used to get really frustrated by these situations and then you’d end up and being stressed and angry doesn’t help anybody. So actually taking the

Debbie: No, it doesn’t really get you anywhere in f-

Katy: funny side I think is definitely the solution.

Debbie: That’s what I try to do. So yes, we did have a laugh. My last comment leaving was make sure you indicate. So yes, he did have a bit of a laugh, which is fine. But weirdly, the day before I had to go and see a GP. Never met this GP before because I had a really bad cold and it turned into like a flu type thing and my ribs were so, so painful and I just wanted to check it wasn’t a chest infection. But it was costochondritis, so it’s the cartilage between your ribs.

Katy: I’m glad you said that ’cause I do not ha know how to pronounce that.

Debbie: But all my ribs were really, really swollen, which is why breathing just really hurt. But he was just the complete opposite. And he was just put it this way, like mansplaining everything to me. And I was just like, look, I’ve lived with

Katy: Right. Okay.

Debbie: This for so many years. I kind of know generally what it is. I just wanted to check because otherwise it can get a chest infection, get quite serious for me. So I just wanted to check. here was the…

Katy: Yes. Yeah. And then you might have to take come off your meds and all those sorts of things, yeah.

Debbie: Exactly. Yeah. And I was just like, do you know what? And then he was like, I’ve had costochondritis before, it’s fine. And then I was then trying to ask him about my flu vaccination and my eligible, and he just blanked me. And I just thought, do you know what? I can’t be bothered with this anymore. So I’m going. But weirdly, my daughter had an appointment straight after me for something different. And yeah, she came out and going, who the hell was he? I was like, it’s not just me,

Katy: Oh really?

Debbie: But it’s just why. Again, I think this comes back to our previous episode that we recorded though, about why don’t you believe us? Because it really felt that he didn’t believe me at all. And he even turned to my daughter and said, you make a great story. And it’s just like, you what? Thankfully I wasn’t there at the time. But it’s just like, she was in pain. We don’t make these things up.

Katy: It’s not for the fun like and nobody wants to go to the doctors if they don’t have to. Because I often think when you sat in a doctor’s waiting room you’re more likely to get sick because there’s lots of sick people.

Debbie: Well, yeah, because other people, exactly. I was really, really quite annoyed with that. But then it’s just like, just believe us. You may have seen people that have come in, you know, that maybe want a sick day or no off or something, But don’t tarnish everyone with the same. It’s just, no, we are not like that.

Katy: And that’s gonna be like, I don’t know, one in ten, one in a hundred people. The majority of people will actually have something wrong. And as we’ve always talked about as well, we all experience things differently. So good for him if it doesn’t bother him. Uh but

Debbie: Exactly. Yeah. You know, but, but then also he doesn’t have to wear a bra, you know, sometimes that really hurts my ribs as well.

Katy: Yeah. Yes, that’s a good point

Debbie: He didn’t even tell me what to take for it then I think this is also then where people go back and Google. And then this is where you get the misinformation So, yeah, very, very frustrated.

Katy: So completely two ends of the spectrum in terms of what you can expect.

Debbie: Oh, yeah, completely. Yeah, which is I was probably slightly more anxious going in the next day to the joint injection, but then absolutely fine. really, we left with really good rapport and mutual respect for each other as well. I mentioned the charity and what I was doing and he was like, that’s amazing. That’s really great. And I should have said come on the pod,

Katy: It would good to get like a radiologist and to talk through what they do and how it how it helps us.

Debbie: It would, yeah.

Katy: And how was your elbow after? ‘Cause I know when I’ve had joint injections and I’ve only ever had them in my wrists and thumb, I’ve always just found it’s quite uncomfortable for maybe sort of twenty four hours or so.

Debbie: Yes, it was quite uncomfortable. even now it’s reminding me, because it’s only a few days after, it’s reminding me that I have had it. So, I do need to be careful and not do heavy lifting and things like that. But also, sleeping though, because I move a lot whilst I’m sleeping and hurts. So that, that’s kind of me really, but we went to parliament, didn’t we?

Katy: Yes, yeah.

Debbie: And that was for an ARMA event, which is the Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Alliance and trying to get MPs to realize impact the MSK conditions have, musculoskeletal, but inflammatory arthritis is part of that as well, higher up the political agenda, because it really can impact us. And this really blends into what Arun was saying last week though, and his work on policy and trying to get the, and I love what he said about getting the voice of that lived experience involved a lot more.

Katy: Yeah. and it’s really needed for people to completely understand how it affects lives. And actually, one of the big things I took away from Arun’s episode was the stats around if you’re out of work for a month. but

Debbie: It was 90%

Katy: Ninety percent will go back to work and if you’re out of work for a year, it was under fifty percent that generally find their s themselves back in work. So, it really shows the sort of importance where possible and that everybody kind of works together to if people want to work, obviously not everybody does depend on their situation, but if people want to work, how people can, be looked after enough so that they can make that step. And it can take time and like what Arun said, he took, he ended up sort of starting, stopping because of his multiple conditions, it sort of really affected his ability to be in continuous work. And something I’m I think is so needed is workplaces being much more flexible and offering more flexible contracts, more flexible working hours, which I think is now an actual right from day one, but it’s whether people feel comfortable and confident in actually requesting it, because if they don’t see other people doing it in a organization, then they’re less likely to request it themselves.

Debbie: I think it’s also known that you can request it, but then your employer can still say no. They need to give you the grounds to say no. So I think it’s just having a conversation with them about what you really need. But then it’s tough. the world of work out there is horrendous at the moment, because you know, if you are out of work, trying to get a job is just a nightmare.

Katy: There’s yeah, it sounds and a lot of organisations are cutting people because of AI. they’re reducing teams. So it’s just I think it’s really, really difficult and awful for kind of younger people, say it’s kind of coming out of school or university, because those lower level opportunities just don’t feel like they’re there anymore.

Debbie: No, and I think then again, if you have a health condition on top of that, you don’t, it seems like we’re going backwards a bit and not wanting to talk about it because you then don’t want to be seen as difficult. And then even though it is, as I said, in the episode with Aaron, it is a special characteristic and they can’t discriminate against that but having the access to work that Aaron was saying as well, the help.

Katy: Yes, yeah.

Debbie: So, you know, if your employees don’t know about it, you know, speak to them about that as well. And there is obviously the budget. We were recording this just before the budget. Not that we want to get political, but, there is the PIP review has been, I think, back a bit as well. So once everything else like that comes out, we will discuss it and see what everyone’s opinions is as well.

Katy: Yeah, and that seemed terrible as well, that he got refused sort of pip and then had to wait, but then when it went to a hearing, it was just accepted. So it was kind of it felt like putting somebody through something that didn’t actually need to happen.

Debbie: Yeah, and again, we know that stress and stuff isn’t good for us, but what he’s gone through, the extremely rare side effects he had from his biologic is just unbelievable. But how he then changed his life around and it’s like, no, I want to do this. I want to help people and realizing that he still has bad days, good days, but his support network sounds amazing though.

Katy: Yeah. And I think that’s something that’s resonated across the piece. That everybody that seems to cope well and sort of improve their life with these conditions, they do have a lot of support around them. And I think, you know, building that support network or hopefully people have not everybody does, but having that support around you. I think is fundamental to being able to live well.

Debbie: Oh, completely. But then this is why we’re doing this. So, if you don’t have that support network, just listen to us because we get it. You know, we, I’ve gone through, yeah, being ill has really kind of knocked me back quite a lot and my joints were just so, so painful. And there were days that I really just did not want to get out of bed because my back and my hips just didn’t want to do anything. But then again, it’s trying to get into your brain that actually, no, you need to get up, it will help it, but it’s the last thing you want to do. But then there was also this research that came out about women being told that their pain is mainly in their heads.

Katy: Yes. And it

Debbie: I can’t remember the ins and outs of it, because you sent a link to me and it’s a site,

Katy: It happens and I think your GP appointment sort of proves it. That’s

Debbie: proves it.

Katy: A real living like you know, we can’t say that he wasn’t the same with a man in the room because we don’t have that evidence, but if you and your daughter had a very similar experience with the GP, then pff it I think it partly proves it. That this does happen in real life. Because sometimes you can read these types of things and go, I’m sure that doesn’t really happen. But I mean, all you have to do is have a bit of a scroll through Instagram and you see lots of people airing their views on this sort of thing.

Debbie: Yeah, completely. yeah, well, I’ve had it throughout my

Katy: And I’ve definitely had it in different situations.

Debbie: life. I remember one time I was on crutches, my knees and my hips were really, really painful and slightly swollen. But then we went and saw this consultant and he just turned around to my mum and goes, it’s all in her head. and he didn’t even bother to talk to me or anything. It must’ve been about 15. And my mum was then in tears and we left. And then I think we sort of went back and go, do you need a bit of time? And I was just like, looking back, was like, oh my gosh, if anyone had said that to me now, that would have been like, excuse me, I want a second opinion. Don’t you dare talk to me like that. But then also when you’re in that room, dynamics change.

Katy: Yeah, the there’s a there’s always a bit of a power dynamic, which I don’t think there should be, because we are equals in that room. They have the medical expertise; we have our personal body expertise. We know how we feel, they’re not in they’re not in our body, they don’t know how we feel. All they can look at is what they can see and what we’re explaining. And they need to listen, as a few people have said, it’s all about that. Actually the person may not be saying all the right things, but if you listen deeply and properly understand, then you can generally understand what’s going on.

Debbie: I can’t remember what happened afterwards. I probably blocked that out of my mind because I was just so upset. I was just really upset because it wasn’t, I really couldn’t walk and my knees, and for me, I could tell my knees were swollen,

Katy: But yeah, and it wasn’t until I saw I mean, I don’t wanna there’s lots of great male doctors out there. So don’t wanna, you know, completely yeah. Don’t wanna

Debbie: Yeah, yeah, my radiologist was brilliant.

Katy: sort of tarnish ever but it wasn’t until I saw a woman that I actually I got my referral to a rheumatologist.

Debbie: really?

Katy: I changed GP surgeries to get it. Yeah, but not everybody can. ’cause when you’re really in pain or suffering and feeling dreadful, you haven’t got the brain capacity to think about all these things. And you just take  things at face value. And if people say there’s nothing wrong with you, you go, Well, you’re the expert. Okay. You really so it it’s that self advocating piece, which I mean, takes years. And then you still struggle to do it.

Debbie: Yeah. And I also think it’s harder for when your child is going through that as well, because as mothers and parents, you know, you believe your children because, they may lie to get out of school, but generally, when they’re lying on, when they’re not, you know, and so when you, but then when you go to the GP again, it’s that power dynamics is they know. And if they then say, it’s just growing pains, that’s just what people believe. And then also this is why I think more people have then been going to A &E because they don’t want to go back to that GP to say, it’s just growing pains. Actually pretty deep down, know, it’s not, it’s probably something. But then as a parent, you’re not quite sure what it is. And also parents may not know that children can get arthritis as well. So again, I just want to highlight this.

Katy: I didn’t know until I got arthritis myself that children also got it because there’s so much misinformation out there. Or well just no information.

Debbie: Well, exactly. but then trying to be as the parent, that voice for the child, as you’re kind of seeing like the in-between one is like, well, what do I do? And that’s just so much then wait on the parent to try and get that the diagnosis to actually see what’s going on. So yes, there’s, there’s, there is a lot to do, but you know, we’re not, we’re not slating healthcare professionals at all. it’s just having that rapport with them. And that is so, so key. And as I explained, yeah, my radiologist there, he was absolutely brilliant.

Katy: It’s like you could go back to BMW dealerships. They possibly just don’t show people where the indicator is.

Debbie: Yeah, that’s what it is. But then before we go, we need to discuss the NHS app quickly because you had a notification come through that you’ve never had before.

Katy: No. So I order my prescriptions for one of my DMARDs through the NHS app and it goes straight through it must go straight to through to the GP and then they ordered the prescription with my pharmacist. And I was like blown away because normally I have to play a bit of a guessing game. When’s my prescription going to be ready? When shall I go in? Is it going to be three days? Is it going to be five days? What do I think? I got a text. Did I get a text message or a notification in the app? I can’t completely remember. Never had this before. It was quite exciting. And then I started digging into the NHS app a bit more. And then I found and thankfully I did find, because it’s not in any of my diaries, that I have a hospital appointment in a few weeks. And all my appoint my hospital appointments and so GP appointments went in the NHS app before, but now all my hospital appointment and hospital appointment letters are in the NHS app. So I don’t understand like I don’t think we get really updates on what’s happening and where to get information. ‘Cause I keep looking to see if I can find like blood test results, but they’re not connected yet.

Debbie: Because I went to my GP, he then ordered me to get some blood tests done. So if they’d gone through the GP, then I can see them. If they’re ones through the hospital, even though I go to the hospital to get them done anyway, they don’t come through on the app. So it’s just GP ordered ones only.

Katy: Um, ’cause mine are all booked through the hospital. So maybe that’s why. So this but it’s all these kind of little inconsistencies. It’s hard to know where to find your information.

Debbie: The communication, I’ve always had this issue with the NHS App that way. seems to have been brought out, but no actual campaign about what it is, what you can do on it. And why does it differ throughout the country as well?

Katy: Yeah, and on another app, I had a situation in the last week where my biologic delivery organization had set up my next delivery for so I know I’m going to run out of we talked about this a bit a bit ago, must have been low in stock. So instead of getting sort of three months’ worth of medication at once, I was just getting it at a month at a time. Then they sent through that my prescription had been renewed, and when do you need your next medication? And on their app, you put in sort of how many pens you’ve got left, when you last took one, when your next dose is expected. So, then I think it’s supposed to automatically work out when you next need a delivery. So, I would next need a delivery sort of mid to the end of November. But the only date I could select, the earliest date I could select was 2nd of Jan, which then I was like, have I misunderstood this? You know, when you start have is there a delivery coming that I’d not remembered? I wasn’t quite sure. luckily I managed to go through their chat function and get it sorted pretty quickly. But if I’d not realised, I would have potentially been out of medication for two months.

Debbie: That’s awful. Yeah, because I must admit sometimes when I do it, I just click, closest one, that’s fine, because I’m generally trying to do about 25 things all at the same time.

Katy: Yeah. Well yeah.

Debbie: Don’t do that. Make sure you are, more awake and with it when you actually see the date, but then I’ve got the opposite. They keep messaging me saying, next subscription’s ready and it’s like, okay, is it? How many have you got? And it’s like, well, I’ve got..quite a lot. it’s, but it’s the same company though.

Katy: Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah.

Debbie: It’s just very bizarre and how it is, but it’s just, think it’s just staying vigilant on when your medication is due.

Katy: Yeah. ‘Cause I’ve had no problems for a good couple of years now actually. There was a whole load of problems at one point, but it’s been really good. So I was quite I was quite surprised.

Debbie: Hopefully it’s just, a one-off. Yeah.

Katy: Hopefully it’s just a blip one off like s maybe something went wrong with their code like because all these things, it is technology that just sorts it out. So, something must have gone wrong with their coding or their algorithm that just picked the wrong date.

Debbie: Yeah, but it does make you question what you’ve put in though. And actually,

Katy: Yes, yeah.

Debbie: God, did I do that right? Have I done it wrong? Have I’m missing something in the, it just makes you, yeah, think about everything that you’ve put in and, annoying, but hopefully.

Katy: I just thought I’d flag, just in case anybody else is having like it’s worth just thinking and checking.

Debbie: Just make sure you just double check the dates that they suggest and does it work for you and how many you’ve got as well. So, it’s something else to add to our list, isn’t it, to do.

Katy: Yes, yes, yeah. As well as buying six thousand litres of water, twenty cans of something to keep us alive. Uh

Debbie: And a wind up radio. I’ve never heard of them. I’ve never had one. Like we’re going back to the fifties or something. This seems a bit ridiculous, but you know.

Katy: Yeah, I mean I just I mean, obviously something’s going on and they’re expecting something. Don’t want to get gloomy, but I like to stay positive. Nothing we would all be fine.

Debbie: I’ll say to, live for the moment, Anyway, please do go and fill the survey out that I mentioned before, again, it’ll be on our website and in show notes and on our newsletter as well. So sign up to our newsletter at inflammatoryarthritis.org and you’ll get the most up-to-date information on our episodes, upcoming episodes, any events. We are having an online event in November as well. all of that information will be in the newsletter. We are on social media. Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and Blue Sky and watch us on YouTube and subscribe to our channel. But until next week, Katy, it’s goodbye.

Katy: Goodbye.