Episode 72 Arun: AS, Work & a Rare Side Effect

“When you have a health condition, it can feel really isolating.”

Living with ankylosing spondylitis (AS) changed the course of Arun’s life in ways he never expected. In this week’s episode of Inflammatory!, Arun shares his journey from a successful career in finance to becoming a leading voice in disability policy and advocacy.

After developing AS in his twenties, Arun faced an incredibly rare side effect from a biologic treatment that left him unable to recognise loved ones, remember everyday tasks or continue working. At one stage he had to relearn basic activities, setting himself goals such as ordering a sandwich independently or navigating public transport again.

We discuss:

🔹 The early symptoms of AS and his diagnosis journey
🔹 The rare treatment side effect that changed everything
🔹 Living with cognitive impairment and rehabilitation
🔹 Managing health anxiety after serious medication side effects
🔹 Access to Work, workplace adjustments and staying in employment
🔹 Applying for PIP and navigating the appeals process
🔹 The hidden financial costs of living with a long-term condition
🔹 Why lived experience must be at the heart of policy decisions
🔹 Finding purpose, confidence and new hobbies after diagnosis

Arun also shares how gardening, pottery and disability advocacy helped him rebuild his confidence and discover a new direction in life, reminding us that while inflammatory arthritis can change our plans, it can also reveal strengths we never knew we had.

Memorable Quotes

“My goal last year was to go to Pret and order a sandwich by myself.”

“I thought policy is the way that we can change lots of people’s lives.”

“Focus on what you can do, and what you can improve and change.”

“Sometimes being kinder on yourself is really important.”

Resources Mentioned

• Access to Work https://www.gov.uk/access-to-work
• Personal Independence Payment (PIP) https://www.gov.uk/pip
• Disability Policy Centre https://thedisabilitypolicycentre.org/
• Scope https://www.scope.org.uk/
• Inflammatory Arthritis UK https://inflammatoryarthritis.org/

Keywords

Ankylosing spondylitis, AS, axial spondyloarthritis, biologics, biologic side effects, rare medication side effects, inflammatory arthritis, disability benefits, PIP, Access to Work, disability policy, chronic illness, employment and disability, rehabilitation, brain fog, cognitive impairment, chronic illness advocacy, disability rights, living with ankylosing spondylitis, inflammatory arthritis podcast.

Disclaimer: Debbie and Katy are not medical professionals. They share personal experiences of living with IA to build connection and community. The podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice. We talk about our personal health journeys, and the podcast is not intended to provide professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. We are not medical professionals and in no way claim to be medically trained. The podcast does not take responsibility for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of the podcast. The podcast does not assume responsibility for the accuracy of third-party content. For more information, head to https://inflammatoryarthritis.org/

Debbie: Hello and welcome to Inflammatory with Debbie.

Katy: And Katy

Debbie: We’re delighted today to be joined by Arun He is a policy researcher and advisor he developed ankylosing spondylitis in his twenties. Following his diagnosis, he left a career in finance to advocate for better policies and opportunities for people living with health conditions.

He is a research director at the Disability Policy Centre, which is a think tank focused on improving the lives of disabled people. serves on the Department for Work and Pensions Disability Advisory Panel and is a committee member at Scope, the disability charity. Aaron, you sound like you do so much. So, thank you for joining us today. If you could just take us back to what your previous career looked like before you had your diagnosis.

Arun: Yeah, definitely. Really excited to be here as well. So, I started working in finance after I left uni. I probably had some symptoms of AS that time as well, but I kind of just ignored it along the way. and I worked in equity research and investment banking and really enjoyed it. It was a really nice career working in the city and it was really great for about five, six years.

Katy: So, what did those early symptoms look like for you?

Arun: For me it was I used to get this pain when running and stiffness when I was cycling in my neck and there was a point where I was swimming and I could never turn my head to the right, I could turn it to the left. And I thought, maybe I’ve just done it yes, the way you rationalise things and put them to the back of your mind. You think, maybe it’s this or I stretched funny or it’s something like that and I just ignored it really.

Katy: Yeah, because I guess if you had first symptoms when you were early at university, you’re 18, 19, that kind of age, so how long was it before you went and saw a medical professional?

Arun: I think so when I was about twenty-five, I was suddenly very ill one day. Like I just couldn’t get out of bed, and I couldn’t breathe very well. I had really bad chest pain, joint pain everywhere. So, I went to the doctors, and they just couldn’t quite figure out what was wrong. They thought maybe it’s some sort of mystery illness and then it took about a year later and they did some more tests. they tested me for the gene for AS, but I didn’t have it, so they ruled it out. And I remember going home that night and thinking, Googling the condition, thinking, thank goodness I don’t that. And then about six months later, they did a MRI of my SI joint and that confirmed some bony fusion, and that really helped it. But it took about a year and a half of really having quite acute symptoms for me to come back with a diagnosis. And I remember my parents and my girlfriend being quite upset at the time for my diagnosis, but I was just so relieved that finally there was a name for something that had really been getting to me for a long time.

Debbie: But a year and a half, that’s considering the diagnosis time for AS, is generally around eight years. So actually, you were diagnosed very quickly in comparison to others. So then obviously you felt relieved that it’s something, did they then put you on treatment?

Arun: Yeah, so I started anti-inflammatories at first, and then quite quickly I started the first biologic, which really helped a lot. Like it had a huge boost. But after a year it didn’t work very well. So I had to move to another one, but that was really interesting because it caused really significant and unexpected side effects. So I think after about six months on the second biologic, I started to notice things weren’t quite right in my thinking. So I kept getting lost in the grocery market and I couldn’t remember how to do basic things like make a jacket potato or a cheese on toast. Like really simple things.

Katy: Wow.

Arun: And I thought maybe it’s brain fog, because a lot of people complain about brain fog and these symptoms. And so, I went to my rheumatologist, and he was like, maybe, but I wouldn’t worry too much about it. But then month each month things got just a little bit worse. And I got my thinking just got a little bit more obscure and confused. and it took about a year of going to different rheumatologists and different urologists, and they did a brain scan, and that showed that lots of my brain and thinking had been affected. And they figured out by ruling everything else out that it was actually one of the biologics.

Katy: Wow.

Arun: and is really rare, like I’m the second reported case ever to have this impact. yeah.

Katy: Wow. Okay. And is that globally or UK?

Arun: Globally I think, but at least I think in Europe, because I think it’s a European database, so it’s the second reported case in Europe.

Debbie: It is very, very rare

Katy: Okay. Yeah.

Arun: So, and it was a big change really. In the journal that talks about it refers to it as treatment induced dementia in the sense that it’s very different to dementia in terms of its causes, but the symptoms and day to day experience was very similar, like I I forgot who my mother was, I couldn’t recognise my girlfriend,

Katy: My gosh.

Arun: I couldn’t do basic things like make a cup of tea or get dressed or all these sorts of things. But thankfully that’s got better over the last few years. But it was just a big a big change really.

Katy: Wow, that’s huge, especially so, I’m guessing you’re sort of mid to late 20s at that point. And I don’t know how you if you’re cognitively struggling, how do you then sort of explain this to people that you’re working for, friends, colleagues, family? How does that all play out?

Arun: Yeah, I think it was it was quite hard to communicate. I actually had to use one of those books that expresses certain things ’cause I couldn’t get the words out in the right order. So, it had a big impact on work, obviously, but also just socially and for people to really understand what I was going through. I think but my friends are very supportive ’cause they’re very supportive in my AS journey and then a couple of years later it’s a new journey. But yeah.

Katy: That’s really hard though. So, I think you mentioned you had to come out of work as well. what was it like going from really struggling cognitively to then, getting kind of normal brain function back? How can you talk us through that a little bit?

Arun: Yeah, I think it was

Katy: And did they give exercises and things like that?

Arun: Yeah, so you have like rehab that comes to the home and stuff to help you do the tasks. I had vocational rehab. They’re all really great and really supportive about how to take things like how to get the bus again or how to order a cup of coffee or all that sort of really basic stuff. So, my goal last year was to go to Pret and order a sandwich by myself. That was the whole goal for the whole year and managed to accomplish it, but it was really simple and a big thing.

Katy: It’s amazing and it’s great to set goals, isn’t it?

Arun: Yeah, and I think what really helped me is I went to a gardening programme in Battersea run by a charity called Thrive. and they help people with health conditions do accessible forms of horticulture to help them get that sense of accomplishment, rebuild their sense of confidence. It was a really great scheme and I really enjoyed it.

Katy: That’s amazing.

Debbie: No, that’s great. But I know some people don’t do gardening because they can’t with their AS. but how are your symptoms with the AS as well during that time?

Arun: Yeah, the gardening specifically, like what was really great about it is they did loads of accessible equipment and that was really good. Then everything was raised, so they’re raised planters and beds, so they were really understanding from that perspective. So, it was nice to find that environment. Because I did think it’d be for me because my AS really affects my peripheral joints quite a lot. I think managing both conditions was a really, really tough challenge, but especially at the time when they weren’t sure if it was the biologic or not that was causing the cognitive problems and I didn’t really want to come off the biologic because it had been transformative for my AS

Debbie: That’s the thing, that’s the balance, isn’t it?

Katy: And so have you moved on to a different biologic now?

Arun: I’ve gone on to Jak Inhibitors, which I’ve started in the last couple of months and seem to think seem to be going well. Obviously, I was a bit health anxious after the whole

Katy: Yeah. I was about to say it must build health anxiety having that type of an experience.

Arun: Yeah, it does a bit, but it just because it was so rare and I knew these treatments can and help and do help millions of people. I thought just give it a go again and I feel quite happy I did. So

Katy: Yeah, yeah, because a couple of weeks ago we were talking to someone who was diagnosed with juvenile idiopathic arthritis as a child and had huge health anxieties around taking the medication as a child because of the feeling of nausea afterwards. This must really make it even more of a struggle.

Arun: Yeah, I think at first I was really nervous and I think I was trying to f look it through the they get the leaflet with all the side effects and I was trying to read everything and then you can and understand it a lot more. But there’s not a lot you can do you can’t have control of the situation and sometimes these bad things happen and that’s the best, yeah.

Debbie: Yeah, that’s fascinating. As you say, it’s so rare. And I don’t even think I could then look and see if the side effects of another medication. But everyone’s different and thankfully, you’re doing really well now. So just thinking more than your career, because as I you were in finance and you moved, what made you then move into policy and advocating for people with long-term health conditions?

Arun: I was living in South London at the time and then once I got this onset of symptoms, so but before my diagnosis, I just realized how difficult everyday things were that I didn’t really appreciate beforehand. Like I struggle with going up and down stairs. So, a third of the tube is inaccessible to me. Getting to work was such a big pain because you had to walk from the station to work. Like I really struggled to do that. cooking was very difficult and I just thought there must be a way help improve things for lots of people who have very different but also very similar experiences and stories and just to try and make things easier. My parents also have had their own health conditions, and I thought policy is the way that we can change lots of people’s lives, really, through good policy making. And I thought it would be a really good way to learn my to use my skills in data and economics and this sort of background into understanding how we think about health conditions.

Katy: Yeah.

Debbie: Cause I have a background data as well and I used to work for the government and know that actually data is key to everything. Unless you have that evidence, nothing really gets changed. So, what changes have you actually seen happen since you’ve started working on the policy side?

Arun: So, we’ve worked on three big areas, I think transport, employment and welfare. We’ve done a lot on transport, so they’ve announced a lot in terms of disabled people’s concessionary bus travel. There used to be time restrictions on whether you can use that, that’s been changed. The government’s also looking at how to make pavement parking less of an issue, because outside of London, that’s a big problem, especially if you have a health condition trying to navigate the pavement and there’s bins or cars blocking everything.

Katy: Yes,

Debbie: Think that’s across the country to be fair. That is everywhere. But people just don’t realize actually how inconvenient it is and how much more of a struggle, something like that, that you probably think you’re helping making the roads wide so people can get traffic down. But actually you can’t use the pavements and it’s just another additional struggle for us when, sometimes it’s even a struggle to get out of bed and out of the house. And then you see something like that, you’re like, why did I bother?

Katy: Yeah.

Arun: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of the other work I’ve done is about there are lots of reforms to disability benefits last year that got pulled last minute and I did a lot of work showing actually how is this going to impact people with health conditions and then I’ve worked quite closely with the DWP and the government about how we can help people not just get into work but get into jobs and keep jobs that they’re really passionate and enjoy.

Katy: And what do you think kind of influences and helps people stay in work once they actually are successful to get a job?

Arun: Supporting people at work is the big thing because people with health conditions are twice as likely to fall out of work. and there’s two things of support that are really helpful. the first is a supportive culture and a process where you can really feel able to speak about your adjustments and what things you might need. Things like flexible working or flexible hours have really helped me being able to later start, for instance, also feeling like you’re not the only one in the team that has those changes. So, if it’s a whole company that has that process, it’s much easier. And then you don’t need to say, well, I’m going to the hospital for an hour or these sorts of things.

Katy: Yeah.

Arun: There’s also a lot of government support. So I was really lucky there’s a scheme called Access to Work, which helps people with health conditions get the adjustments they need. They can help advise you on what you need. And for me it was I needed a sit stand desk in a special type of office chair because I just can’t sit down for long periods. And they’re able to provide that through government funding. so that really helped me.

Debbie: So all employers able to access the access to work? Okay.

Arun: Yes, all employers can access it and I think it currently supports about seventy thousand people.

Katy: Okay, that’s really good.

Debbie: Well, as you say, it’s not only getting the jobs, but it’s then staying in the jobs. But so many people that we speak to are so scared of talking to their employers about it. But then it is also one of those, it’s a special characteristic in the Equality Act that it’s, they shouldn’t then discriminate against you either. And it’s just trying to, it’s hard trying to get your employer to understand that because then you don’t want to be difficult. So, it’s very hard, trying to talk to employers. But do you think the culture is changing a lot more now?

Arun: Yes, I think there’s a lot more emphasis on having these conversations. Things like occupational health and access to work are designed to create a third person so you can have those conversations as well. And I think the government is trying to do a lot more in terms of how do we create that healthy working environment. And I think culturally I think you do get those more of those shifts, particularly because, nearly four in ten people who are working age have a long term health condition.

Debbie: Yeah. And you’ve also, because I’ve seen quite a few of our community have tried to get PIP and generally some have been successful, some haven’t. And you’ve been successful. Could you just walk us through how you managed to get it?

Arun: Yeah, so PIP personal independence payment is sort of the main working age disability benefit. and it’s designed to help with your extra costs of your health condition or disability. I applied initially and I got the lowest rate possible, which is called standard daily living. But I did think that actually I probably should have scored more points and the assessment I didn’t think was very fair like they thought because I’m able to use a keyboard I can cook a meal easily, like really sort of simple things that I just didn’t think added up.

Katy: What are the main questions that they ask?

Arun: Well, it it’s a standard form and then you score points based on whether you’re able to do a certain activity on your own with assistance with equip you might benefit from equipment or aids, whether and it covers things like washing, cooking, getting dressed, and then there’s also a component about how easily you’re able to move about and get around. And so, I applied and I was a bit disheartened by my initial assessment, but I didn’t think that was that fair, and so I had to appeal.  And it took about a year and a half for the appeal to eventually reach tribunal. So it took a really long time.

Katy: Wow. That’s a long time. And that’s a long time for somebody to be waiting and not, maybe having access to certain things.

Arun: Yeah, it’s can really be big impact. but then I walked into the tribunal and then I immediately got the award that I wanted. and that was before they just immediately agreed. We didn’t have to go do the whole discussion or anything. So, I was waiting a year and a half just for a two-minute decision. But

Katy: Gosh. I mean, obviously it’s positive, but it must be quite frustrating the fact you had to wait so long.

Arun: It is. But we know that about seventy percent of people who appeal do get their award. So, it it’s a clear case of the system not working properly because people should be getting those points and those decisions in their favour earlier on and we know I think about one in four people with inflammatory arthritis currently get PIP.

Katy: Okay.

Debbie: People find it hard to fill the forms out because you can be doing it when you’re on a good day. But because these are chronic fluctuating conditions, I think it’s trying to get that over to the assessors that they don’t fully understand because there could be some days that we go cook, no problem. But then other days that we really even struggled to get out of bed to do the general day to day things. But it’s great to hear that you’ve got it because having these conditions does cost.

Arun: Yeah, I mean scope says having a health conditional disability probably costs about a thousand pounds extra a month. so

Debbie: Well, yeah, probably would do actually if you, I’ve never quantified it, but yeah, that makes sense to be fair.

Katy: Yeah, and when you when you just think of all the extra things, definitely.

Arun: Yeah, I think for me it’s heating and things like that. So, I struggled to walk long distances ’cause of fusion in my hip, but getting a like a proper mobility aid was a really big help for me and a real beneficial thing.

Katy: And how is your day to day now in terms of living with AS? What do you find still challenging and what have you seen get better or improve? Might be a better word.

Arun: There’s lots of challenges with AS and inflammatory arthritis. And I think if I was going to back six, seven years when I first had the symptoms and it was really quite bad, I don’t think I’d be able to accomplish all the things I can do day to day. I used to really enjoy going to the gym and then I wasn’t able to do that for a while. But thankfully I managed to find a personal trainer who also has AS and he helped design some exercises so I could train my back and my legs. And that was a huge help. That’s been fantastic to be able to go back and exercise again and that’s just something I didn’t think would be really that possible w or that easy before.

Debbie: I think that’s a struggle for most people when, we do need to do exercise and movement and thinking, go down the gym, but trying to get that across to, if you do have personal trainers, trying to get that across to them what your disease is, but actually having someone who has it, that must be amazing for them to go, yep, get it, don’t need to explain, get it. And, then they can tailor the exercises around you because they understand the condition a lot better.

Arun: Yeah, it’s been huge really that someone understands things. You don’t need to explain everything. which I think is the big issue with work and things like that. It’s trying to get across how this affects you and the things you can’t do, but it doesn’t stop you being able to do lots of other things. yeah.

Katy: Yeah, and it’s the repetition, isn’t it? Constantly having to talk about it but also knowing that you’re likely to be met with people just not really getting it.

Arun: I always struggle to explain what it’s like to have inflammatory arthritis. I never know how to describe the days that are really challenging or ’cause externally you may look completely the same as you are on a good day. So how do you communicate that things are a bit more difficult and sometimes a lot more difficult as well.

Katy: Yeah, because I tend to find that on bad days I get really frustrated and then I’ll just be really grumpy and quite moody. But then it’s quite hard to quantify why you’re feeling that way. actually, have you found that it affects, I mean, obviously you had the cognitive issues, but in terms of your mental health, that been with all the challenges? Because you’ve had a lot of challenges over the last five to six years.

Arun: I think having all these conditions can be quite mentally just draining as well and exhausting more than anything else. but I think for me I’ve always been able to find ways to focus on smaller things and sense of accomplishment and I really got into pottery and stuff ’cause that helped me f like I thought it was to help me with my both my hands and because of my neurological symptoms as well. Just really get into that. and that’s something I really enjoyed and I’m not great, so but

Debbie: Keep practicing and we’ll see you on the Great Pottery Thread only in a couple of years, yeah?

Arun: Yeah, there’s a lot of wonky vases in the house and things like that. So

Debbie: But you’ll get Keith crying. It’d be brilliant.

Katy: Yeah, and that’s unique, isn’t it? It’s your own style.

Arun: Yeah, that’s what I’ll call it.

Debbie: Yeah. When you’re famous after this, obviously being a YouTuber now, just sign it and you’ll get loads of money. It’d be brilliant. But again, I think this is what is so fascinating. What I find is when we talk to guests that they come on and they always find something that they never knew that they could, whether they do it well or not is another matter, but then actually change to do something that they really enjoy because would you have ever done pottery otherwise, do think?

Arun: No, not at all really. I just didn’t think I wasn’t that creative as a person, especially growing up and then doing like math and economics and all these sorts of things. I just didn’t really think about it. and I think having conditions like AS gives you time to pause and reflect and also think about what makes you like happy and mindful and these sorts of things.

Katy: I think it’s brilliant. I love all these kind of new hobbies that we’re hearing from people that they found as a result of their diagnosis. And I guess even sort of the fact that it’s led your career down a different path. That’s really interesting because do you think you might have found this type of career if it wasn’t for your diagnosis?

Arun: Absolutely not. I think I was so focused on corporate finance and being in that hierarchy and moving up it in his own world, that I just hadn’t really reflected on what I really wanted to do and where I want to make a difference. And then having a health condition I thought actually here’s a real opportunity for me to make a really big difference and gave me a real sense of purpose and mission. I’m really fortunate to have

Katy: Yeah, I think that’s amazing. Really, really lovely to hear.

Debbie: I do as well. But if there’s one thing that you would really like your role in policy that the government could either improve or change, what would that be?

Arun: I think it’s two things. I think the first is having more people with lived experience of health conditions being able to influence and impact policy decisions. So it doesn’t feel like things are being done to them or about them, but they feel more involved. I think that’s really important. And there are signs of that happening, which is really encouraging. and the second is Just taking the example of work, for instance. We know that if you’re out of work for a month, there’s a ninety percent chance you’ll come back to work. If you’re out of work for a year, that falls to fifty percent. And if you leave work and don’t feel like you’re able to get a job again, the chance of you’re returning to work is just four percent.

Debbie: Wow, that’s very low.

Katy: Wow, that’s incredible actually to hear those stats.

Arun: And what it means is there’s a real gap in helping people feel like they’re not limited by their health condition, but they have the confidence to be able to go back into work and tackle these challenges again. I think there’s a real lack of understanding and appreciation of this because any sort of form of condition or disability. It has you know it’s a life-changing impact for lots of people. And how you navigate that process, both through work and through the rest of your life and your social interactions, that often takes a lot of time, and you need that support to feel like you can do that again. And for me, that was a huge part of my journey as well. it wasn’t as simple as just moving straight from banking to mission-oriented work, it was finding that process and figuring about what things I wanted to do and could really excel in.

Katy: and how long were you out of work? if that’s not too personal.

Arun: I had a year gap and then I went back and then the cognitive problem problems came back. And so it was it was kind of a mix it was kind of stop and start for a little bit for a couple of years.

Katy: Yeah, and that’s quite tricky, isn’t it? In terms of, building your own, not resilience, that’s kind of the wrong word, but, you know, getting into that routine and then it breaking. I think that can probably be quite hard.

Arun: I think having gaps is always challenging and things stopping and starting, but that’s just sometimes the way things happen and

Katy: Yeah.

Arun: That’s the way it is and all you can do is really make the best of it and focus on what you can do, and you can improve and change.

Katy: Yeah, yeah. And for us as patients, what can we do to try and influence some of this change?

Arun: I think it’s really understanding that your voice in your story really matters and there are loads of ways that can capture that. Whether that’s you know participatory research or it’s programs like this that help amplify the stories that people have. I think it’s really understanding that when you have a health condition it can feel really isolating. And when I had AS, I didn’t know anyone else with AAS, so I didn’t know what else to do or who to turn to. So I think there are loads of ways for people to feel involved and get involved in so many different ways. That isn’t just about policy and trying to change that, but to feel like you’re part of a bigger movement for change.

Debbie: I think that’s why, you know, exactly why we started this charity and the podcast as well is to hear the raw stories that go on behind the scenes that no one would really ever know about. And those challenges, again, whether it is with medication, that seems to come up quite a bit as well. But also, then the challenges of going into work and for PIP and just general daily life that unless you’re living it, you generally don’t understand it. And, but then I think, you say that, Aaron, you then learn so much about yourself as well. You’ve gone on a completely different journey career wise, and you’ve got new hobbies as well. Again, a very key theme of what comes out in these podcasts as well. But it is just, as you say, just trying to amplify all our voices for everyone, society, healthcare professionals, policy people, to really understand what it’s like to live with day in, day out it can be tough. But I think your story is absolutely inspirational. really is. And thank you so much for your time today. And I think is, is there anything that you’ve learned from yourself having A.S. as well?

Arun: I think sometimes to be kinder on yourself as well is really important. I think I always thought I could just go from one phase of working into another quite easily or I things would be much simpler. And I think just recognising things do take time and not putting too much pressure on yourself times as well, I think is really important. Something I learnt and I think is really important. I think the other thing is I’m just really grateful for all the other support that I have around me like my girlfriend also helps me with washing and dressing and things like that, which, in your twenties and thirties isn’t something that you normally expect to be part of your relationship. But I think caring is a really important other side as well, which people also don’t think about or see as much.

Debbie: Yeah, there must have been quite a strain on her as well, but it’s amazing that she was there to, as you say, to support you and get you through it and you’re still together, which is fantastic.

Katy: I just moved in with my now husband when I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. And I think it kind of shows whether they’re a keeper or not, in my opinion. So you learn a lot about yourself and your partner.

Arun: Well, I always joked to my girlfriend that she stuck with me now ’cause it looked really bad if she left. So when I was unwell.

Debbie: Sorry, Katy uses that as well.

Katy: Yeah.

Arun: Yeah.

Debbie: I think that’s an amazing thing to end on. It’s been a fantastic conversation. Your insights into PIP and policy side and hope that we can help change policy in small ways as well. We are the voice of lived experience with all types of inflammatory arthritis. So, Arun thank you so much for your time today. Don’t forget to follow us on social media. We are on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Blue Sky. And you can sign up to our newsletter at inflammatoryarthritis.org. And don’t forget to watch all our episodes on YouTube. You can also subscribe to the channel, so you never miss an episode. Arun thank you so much again for your time today and till next week, Katy it’s goodbye.

Katy: Goodbye.